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Trump’s evangelical base has shrunk

President Donald Trump speaks with Liberty University president, Jerry Falwell Jr., right, during commencement ceremonies at the school in Lynchburg, Va., on May 13, 2017. (AP Photo/Steve Helber)

At the beginning of the year, the Washington Post asked Jerry Falwell, Jr. whether there was anything Donald Trump could do that would endanger his support among evangelical leaders. “No,” Falwell replied. “I know anything he does, it may not be ideologically ‘conservative,’ but it’s going to be what’s best for this country, and I can’t imagine him doing anything that’s not good for the country.”

Well, Falwell and his fellow leaders may be standing firm, but when it comes to the evangelical rank in file, maybe not so much.

At the beginning of December The Marist poll found 73 percent of white evangelicals approving of the job Trump was doing as president, compared to 17 percent who disapproved. Six weeks later, Marist’s numbers are 66 percent and 23 percent respectively.

No doubt, that’s still a whole lot of evangelical support for the president. By comparison, the entire national sample went from 49 percent disapproval v. 42 percent approval to 53-39. But it’s notable that the approval margin among white evangelicals shrunk 13 points, compared to just a seven-point shift overall.

Even more notably, just 58 percent of white evangelicals said they would definitely vote for Trump in 2020. Given that 80 percent of them voted for him in 2016, that ought to give the president’s reelection campaign the willies.

So what’s happened?

Since the prior poll, there has been a stream of disturbing news about the president, from the resignation of Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis to ongoing revelations about Trump business dealings in Russia. But it’s the partial government shut-down that seems to have moved the numbers.

To be sure, two-thirds of white evangelicals support Trump’s proposal for a Southern border wall, according to PRRI. And it’s logical to think that those are the folks who continue to approve of his job performance.

But he’s lost the others, at least for now. They not only can imagine him doing something that’s not good for the country, they believe he’s done it.

About the author

Mark Silk

Mark Silk is Professor of Religion in Public Life at Trinity College and director of the college's Leonard E. Greenberg Center for the Study of Religion in Public Life. He is a Contributing Editor of the Religion News Service

178 Comments

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  • But it’s the partial government shut-down that seems to have moved the numbers.

    In other words, until Trump’s shenanigans hit them directly in their pocketbooks they thought everything he was doing was hunky dory. Typical.

  • Precisely. Right wingers are infamous for being unable to think about anyone other than themselves. It has always been interesting to see so many of them call themselves Christian when so much of Christianity is about empathy, a quality conservatives lack (at least outwardly….many might be empathetic but you never would guess it from their speech and actions).

  • Prof. Silk, may I suggest that a bit more precision in writing would be beneficial?

    You wrote: “… 80 percent of [evangelicals] voted for [Trump] in 2016,”

    This will surely sound like a very small, picky point, but it seems to me that virtually everyone who’s written about this should have said “80% of evangelicals **who voted**, voted for Trump….”

  • Must be a slow news week…
    Trumps numbers will ebb and flow just like any other politician. Numbers don’t matter until November 2020. Trust me, the right will coalesce around trump as soon as the next HRC is nominated.

  • Hey Mr Silk! Just in case you and RNS would like to know, today is the “March for Life Day”.
    Did you know:
    At 12 weeks a pre-born baby has brain activity, a heartbeat, taste buds and can yawn? Pretty cool – huh?!
    AND – can be legally killed in all 50 states?
    Looking forward to RNS’s coverage next week.

  • I don’t think that’s necessary. No reporting does that kind of thing: men who voted, Latinos who voted, etc. “Who voted” is assumed.

  • Actually, Trump’s evangelical numbers haven’t ebbed and flowed, till now. If they’re disaffected the GOP worry is that they’ll stay home come 2020.

  • Nope. Trump is better than any democrat. He may be unpredictable; and perhaps seems unstable to my counterparts on this page – but he has been pretty conservative; more so than Bush or even Paul Ryan.
    I have listed his accomplishments here a number of times – as a conservative who has been disappointed by republicans in the past – trump gets my vote.

  • I do not think that percentage really supports the border wall. I don’t think that they have thought it through. Rather, they support Trump and if Trump wants a wall — they want a wall.

    The support for Trump is all about Roe v. Wade and LGBTQ matters. Their wet dream is that Trump appointed Supreme Court justices will overturn Roe and, at the same time, give that moronic baker a constitutional right to discriminate in spite of applicable local law.

    Meanwhile Trump has packed the federal district and appellate courts with ideologues. The worst president in American history is going to be with us for decades. Decades.

  • Within the context of that paragraph, the subject appears to be all evangelicals. “Evangelical voters” would have added clarity.

  • Trump seems unstable? Try IS unstable, and his instability has destabilized seventy years of trust between our country and our most loyal allies that have formed NATO, something Trump is attempting to destroy. That you would elevate the interests of fetuses over those of the remaining 7.7 billion LIVE human beings on planet earth under the banner of being “pro-life” and that you would detest gay people and our interests to such an extent that you would be willing to put our nation’s security at risk by supporting a criminal madman who is owned by the Russian president and in awe of dictators around the world says a great deal about you – none of it good.

  • http://dctribune.org/rep-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-just-destroyed-trump-during-her-first-speech-on-the-house-floor/

    “The truth of this shutdown is that it is not actually about a wall, it is not about the border, and it is certainly not about the well-being of everyday Americans. The truth is, this shutdown is about the erosion of American democracy and the subversion of our most basic governmental norms. It is not normal to hold 800,000 workers’ paychecks hostage. It is not normal to shut down the government when we don’t get what we want. It is not normal for public servants to run away and hide from the public that they serve. And it is certainly not normal to starve the people we serve for a proposal that is wildly unpopular among the American people.”
    -Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

  • Preborn baby is a contradiction of terms. Babies are born.

    Why must fetus worshipers be so dishonest in their tone and rhetoric?

  • wow – you’re a bit spicy today.
    Simple fact regarding nato countries; whom I served with by the way – they don’t meet their financial commitments; half of their equipment doesn’t work and their soldiers are aging and overweight. All the while they spend more on their social programs. All while under our protective umbrella. All the while Russia is planning for war. I’m glad trump shook them up. They need to prepare. BTW, I’m sure you’re disappointed we’re pulling our boys out of Syria and Afghanistan too – uselessly spilling their blood for nothing.
    I do elevate the innocence of the unborn. I have no shame with that and am embarrassed by my fellow man who cries for equality but shows none to the most innocent.
    For the record, I don’t detest gay people; not even you. Get over yourself.

  • “I do elevate the innocence of the unborn”

    And you denigrate and attack their mothers as “dirty” and unworthy as consideration as people. Your position is about trying to shame them into being considered property of the state.

  • Mr. Silk, I would like to see the numbers re white Catholics. High numbers of them voted for Trump, as well. I would like to know if tht has seen any movement, or if the prospect of overturning Roe v Wade trumps all else.

  • She doesn’t understand innocence before the law, i.e., not having been adjudicated guilty of a crime deserving of the death penalty. She thinks you mean “innocent” as opposed to the mom being NOT innocent.

  • “March for life”? Like when christians “marched” out of their churches in the buybull belt to start America’s civil war, killed 650,000 fellow christians, then “marched” right back to church? That kind of “march”?

  • You think you can s1utshame personhood away. How immoral and ridiculous. As if the decision to keep a pregnancy requires your input. As if their bodies are your property to command.

    Nobody has to care if you think a mother is innocent or dirty. Your opinion means nothing when it comes to such decisions. You are not part of them. Not your body. Never your business.

  • Nope. If you wanted to be more dramatic of Christian on Christian crime – you shudda cited WWI.
    No, this is a bunch of people of all races, colors, creeds, genders, ages, political affiliations – REAL diversity – who come together to defend the truly innocent.
    What you mentioned above was the result of the actions of sinful men.

  • Why are you so intellectually dishonest that you can’t admit that abortion is the disruption of a natural process; and that left uninterrupted; that natural bodily process results in human life?

  • Lots of things are a disruption of the natural process that we accept as part of a modern society.
    It is a poor argument for turning women into chattel property of the state.

  • You’re willfully blind, and a symptom of what is wrong in this country. Get ready for the take-down.

  • Oh, the angry pooch speaks.
    Blind from what?
    2 Supreme Court justices?
    One more on the way.
    35 federal court judges.
    Tax cut for corporations AND individuals.
    Out of Paris accord.
    Out of Iran deal.
    Out of Syria.
    Out of Afghanistan.
    Keystone pipeline.
    Energy independence.
    2 million jobs created.
    Unemployment at all time low.
    MAGA!!!!

  • Oh, so you agree that you are stoping the process of developiment of a human being?
    Glad we finally established that.

  • Using a birth control or what your average teenage boy in their private time stops the development of a human being as well. Go figure.

    Again, poor argument for reducing women to chattel property of the state. Your line of reasoning here is ridiculous. Your concern for human beings stops at birth. It is not concern at all.

  • None of which are actually good things for this country or honest assessments of what happened.

    Especially the tax cut for corporations and the uppermost wealthy AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING.

    We also have more pollution, boneheaded diplomatic efforts which harm US interests, millions of jobs LOST due to consolidation of wealth pointless trade wars, wage stagnation, and now billions lost from the economy because the president is a hostage taking manbaby.

    So much “winning” turning the country into a kleptocratic banana republic.

  • That was silly.

    The 2018 Tax plan is an abomination which is already crippling the economy for those who work for a living. $1,5T added to the national debt with NOTHING to show for it. Nearly 40 years of letting the wealthy and corporations rob public resources blind at the expense of voters has not yielded the economic golden age as promised by conservatives.

    Our largest moment expansion of the middle class had some of the highest tax rates for corporations and wealthy in history.

  • The most incompetent, sociopathic, pathologically lying, treasonous and morally bankrupt soon-to-be-impeached “President” in my lifetime. No wonder you like him.

  • I don’t know…short attention span…things like shutdowns or other distractions may cause a downward blip. But white fundy’s are actually scared out of their biblical panties and boxers. They are Trump’s sheep more than any speculative savior or Shepard God.

    The rubes will return home…they have nobody else to cater to their fears and anxiety’s.

  • What’s wrong with that? Catholic Ireland is even getting in on the act….what’s not to like?

  • Wildly unpopular? Build the wall people voted for Trump and came out in droves because if his support for the wall. Ocasio Cortez is a de facto communist and an utter phony. Federal employees, to who often are the first to ride rough shod over the rights of free citizens, will be paid.Why can’t Democrats give in? Cause the wall will keep Democrat visit ting illegals from coming in.

  • Don’t talk about empathy you fraud. Conservatives fight against abortion-a wicked evil act you support-DONT YOU?!? WE ARE SICK OF DEMOCRATS RIGGING ELECTIONS WITH PEOPLE WHO SHOULD NEVER VOTE-the dead, felons and illegal immigrants!

  • Wildly unpopular. Always had less than a majority support. Build the wall people didn’t exist before Trump. They are not known for being bright or the majority of the country.

    Causing billions of dollars of damage to the country because it isn’t in the budget is immature malicious and stupid beyond measure. Taking hostages to get your way as Trump has tried for the 3rd time is not what responsible leaders of a democracy do. Its what terrorists do.

    Why do you support terrorism? Why do you hate our country and its democratic principles?

  • I have empathy toward you- I am sure you struggle daily with mental illness. Your comment reveals deep seated problems

  • The only proven cases of election fraud have actually been committed by conservatives! And where is your empathy toward women seeking abortions? Oh I guess calling them all filthy no-good whores is conservative empathy these days. You disgust me u piece of cr&p.

  • BS. They fought to keep their slaves. All them christians killing all them christians. Just like you, hypocrites and liars who talk out of both sides of their mouths to legitimize, justify, make excuses, deny, lie then lie about lying.

  • All religious people have killed other religious people in all conflicts throughout human history proving that religion does not matter. It’s as useless as burnt mule shit. Except to be used as an excuse to enable the worst people in the world. That’s the point.

  • “They’ve made their ruling, now let them enforce it”-Andrew Jackson. Just like Jackson we don’t have to abide by every SCOTUS ruling. We won’t let them take us back to 1930 America. We will take to the streets with hats and bats. Guns if necessary.

  • And that affects your life how? Abortion has not affected my life one bit. Why weren’t American soldiers executed for the My Lai massacre? All these good christians who value life so much protested and had parades with signs that said “Free Lt. Calley”. I saw them. It was then i realized just what kind of people they really are. The religious killing the religious all through history (which is just good population control) proves that life is cheap. Such hypocrites and liars.

  • ‘I’m a christian” is the same as saying “I’m a phony, pretending, lying, hypocrite who uses religion as an excuse”. And claims that crazy, supernatural BS is true. No different than any other brand of religious nut anywhere in the world. Kool laid drinkers and suicide bombers. Thanks religion.

  • We only hate religion. Kids are better off not being born than to have their minds poisoned by religion.

  • So what? And when the world is overpopulated and the resources vanish you will be the first to demand abortion as population control. Quit lying.

  • And your stupidity, or do you believe the tooth fairy is real too.? Religion and people like you pose the greatest threat to humanity. If only ALL OF YOU would drink poisoned kool aid, blow yourselves up, or start more wars and kill each other like you have always done the rest of us could live in peace.

  • Warning: Vigorous debate is one thing, personal insults another. I will ban from the site those who persist in attacking fellow commenters as mentally ill, morally corrupt, etc. “Struggle daily with mental illness” is unacceptable.

  • The bottom line to evangelical support for the president is that they have shown us, with remarkable clarity, what liars and hypocrites they are–in fact, have always been–and thus worthy of contempt.

  • Before you van please reach out to me to get names of others who should be banned. They spread disgusting lies and hate about lgbt daily on your site (didn’t know it was your site – I like it very much) and you do absolutely nada. But I guess that is to be expected on a religious news website.

  • Why? Life is good. I resent the burdens and the lies hoisted on me beginning when I was a child and continuing until I said ‘no more’. And intellectually, I could not resolve the core Christian beliefs. I am at peace with my agnosticism.

  • Parkler Jesus will BURN you eternally for not REPENTING of your LIES about what I said.

    REPENT OR BURN FOR YOUR LIES YOU HEATHEN!!!!

  • Parker Jesus will BURN you eternally for not REPENTING of your LIES.

    REPENT OR BURN FOR YOUR LIES YOU HEATHEN!!!!

  • Parker Jesus will BURN you eternally for not REPENTING of your LIES.

    REPENT HEREIN OR BURN FOR YOUR LIES YOU HEATHEN!!!!

  • You seemed to have overlooked Bill McIntosh calling Etranger a fraud. That doesn’t count as an insult? Perhaps one of your infamous warnings is in order, even though those tend to be delivered mostly to people on the left rather than those on the right.

  • It’s no doubt correct that “no reporting does that kind of thing”–and that’s a bad mark against journalists, it seems to me.

  • Dear Mr. Trump and all ye evangelical hypocrites:

    The Great Kibosh of All Religions,

    Putting the kibosh on all religion in less than ten seconds: Priceless !!!

    • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.

    • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.

    • There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.

    • There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.

    • There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.

    • Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.

    • Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated/reborn Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.

    • A constant cycle of reincarnation until enlightenment is reached and belief that various beings (angels?, tinkerbells? etc) exist that we, as mortals, cannot comprehend makes for a no on Sikhism.

    Added details available upon written request.

    A quick search will put the kibosh on any other groups calling themselves a religion.

    e.g. Taoism

    “The origins of Taoism are unclear. Traditionally, Lao-tzu who lived in the sixth century is regarded as its founder. Its early philosophic foundations and its later beliefs and rituals are two completely different ways of life. Today (1982) Taoism claims 31,286,000 followers.

    Legend says that Lao-tzu was immaculately conceived by a shooting star; carried in his mother’s womb for eighty-two years; and born a full grown wise old man. “

  • It’s important to be born. Afterwards, not important. I left the pro-life movement precisely because of this hypocrisy. I still condemn abortion unless it is medically necessary to save the mother’s life (cf. St. Joseph Hospital case in Phoenix).

  • I’m a Christian, indeed, a non-affiliated Catholic, but I do agree with your suggestion that religion in general is THE major source of hatred and bigotry in the world.

  • Your decision is totally in sync with the official teaching of the Church of Rome (cf. CCC-1776 thru -1802). Hang in there!

  • “Preborn baby” is not a “contradiction of terms”. That said, I prefer “biologically human offspring”, a term that can equally apply to the unborn as well as to the born, including folks on life support.

  • Trump is not a “conservative”. He is a *narcissist* and, more likely than not, a sociopath. As my late Great Aunt Martha used to say, “Tell me who your friends are, and I’ll tell you what you are.” From a scriptural perspective, I’d say that Trump is “lost” (cf. Luke 15).

  • Babies are born. A fetus is not.

    Mixing the two terms is used to dishonestly conflate termination of a pregnancy by the woman physically attached to the fetus with infanticide which involves a born infant already outside of the body of a woman and capable of being cared for by other people.

    Failing to make the distinction between the physical and existential differences between birth and gestation undermines all alleged rational appeals made against abortion. Deliberately ignoring the material facts of the situation.

  • Although I agree that our NATO partners should spend more on their military defense, let’s not forget that we support NATO primarily out of our own self-interest. Nothing wrong per se with such a motivation on our part, but…..

  • “With the unique exception of white evangelical Protestants, majorities of all other major religious groups have an unfavorable opinion of Trump. Majorities of black Protestants (80%), religiously unaffiliated Americans (75%), Hispanic Catholics (74%), non-Christian religious Americans (73%), white mainline Protestants (52%), and white Catholics (52%) have a negative opinion of Trump. By contrast, almost seven in ten (68%) white evangelical Protestants have a favorable view of Trump, including 28% who have a very favorable view” (https://www.prri.org/research/partisan-polarization-dominates-trump-era-findings-from-the-2018-american-values-survey/).

    See also https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2017/04/06/new-data-suggest-clinton-not-trump-won-catholic-vote.

    FWIMBW.

  • Problem is you are comparing apples and oranges with respect to the terminology you use. The term ‘baby’ is a social construct; the term ‘fetus’ is a scientific one.

    While (induced) abortion is the termination of a fetus, and while infanticide is the termination of a neonate, both forms of killing have one thing in common: both the fetus and the neonate depend on adults for survival to the next stage of biologically human development. Furthermore, the neonate (a former fetus) may — regrettably — have to rely later in life on the intervention of adults for its survival (chronic disease, etc.). The fetus has a *natural* support system; the neonate has a mechanical one. Both the fetus and neonate, in other words, depend on others — the mother or the medical team, respectively — for survival. What I have described is not at all *dishonest*. It is observable fact.

    Your third paragraph works against your argument. It’s potentially dangerous, as well. The physical can be observed. The “existential” is a philosophical construct that can be used, inter alia, to justify killing.

    When it comes to the destruction of biologically human life, let’s be consistent in our use of terminology. Otherwise, *dishonesty* enters the picture.

  • No, the problem is the dishonest use of terms to intentionally misrepresent positions and make crappy analogy.

    The entire fetus worship position involves intentionally disregarding material facts and even the existence of people. Pretending no fundamental distinction exists between born and unborn. Pretending the woman’s role in the subject to be immaterial or sometimes it is completely omitted. You proved that in your last post.

    “The fetus has a *natural* support system;”

    They are called WOMEN. They are people. They have all rights to control their bodies without your demands or Input. Your position is reductive and hostile to life of those born.

    When fetus worshiper liars talk about “Protecting the unborn”, they are saying, “attack personhood of women”. You intentionally lie and misrepresent conditions in order to further your point.

    You are so dishonest you can’t even bring yourself to acknowledge a woman is a person. You have personally called them mere life support systems. That is immoral garbage.

  • Because religion is such a scam, has caused so much divisiveness, hatred, conflict and gotten away with it and is treated as if it’s real and special. A lot of us are sick of it and fed up with it.

  • To clarify, it’s not my site (I am but a columnist) but if I ban someone he or she is banned from the entire site (RNS). I keep an eye on comments in this space but not on the rest of the site.

  • I believe it could be due to a fall out between Trump and Sheldon Adelson. Adelson promised to financially back Trump if he delivers on Israel whatever she needs. In return Trump promised Adelson he can deliver only if Congress is a Republican majority. Instead it became a Democratic majority.
    With Syria achieving Russia’s S-400 series Trump no longer can deliver what Adelson wants for Israel or the Jews. Trump is pulling troops out of Syria is a big blow against Israel. His war against China for the sake of Israel is not panning out. I wouldn’t be surprised if the marriage of his daughter to Kushner was an arranged marriage where the Kushner family helped Trump become President in order to help Israel. I believe Trump is now having regrets.

  • But that doesn’t mean that the fetus doesn’t carry an incurable disease. And since you won’t have to care for it, you do not give a damn.

  • Point taken. I modified comments. It is just frustrating to have people now engage in good faith and spread hatred and lies and they go unchallenged… thanks for you articles. The site is excellent from a columnist standpoint.

  • Conservative white Catholics appear to have a very narrowly focused understanding of “pro-life”. I myself support the late Chicago Cardinal Joseph Bernardin’s promotion of a *consistent ethic of life*. A Wikipedia entry quotes him saying, “When human life is considered ‘cheap’ or easily expendable in one area, eventually nothing is held as sacred and all lives are in jeopardy.”

  • Your response demonstrates “the dishonest use of terms”. Suffice to say I disagree with your comments in this reply. Your reply is “immoral garbage”.

  • I agree with you, Joseph. The thing is that I think that there ought to be clearer coverage of the fact that conservative white Catholics are part of Trump’s base. I think that it’s especially important in view of those kids from the high school in Covington.

  • That’s my understanding, too. My impression is that Northern Kentucky is more conservative than Louisville and Lexington. I hope — if the reports are accurate — that Covington Catholic expels the kids involved in this obnoxious behavior. They need to be slapped down, but — God forbid! — they were just mirroring the thinking of their white Catholic parents??? Gotta’ wonder.

  • It will do neither you nor me for me to “elaborate”. You could not understand my prior explanation of the importance of carefulness in use of terminology. Not gonna’ waste my time here. And, btw, your emotion-laden comments don’t help your “argument” any.

  • I already described why your position is less than accurate with the facts. You accuse me of the same, but evidently can’t really do it beyond the Pee Wee Herman Defense, “I know you are but what am I”.

  • Outlawing or putting legal limits on abortion is not “turning women into chattel property of the state.” It’s no different that saying that enforcing speed limits is turning people into chattel property of the state.

    You’re not advancing your “argument” any.

  • Crap analogy in lieu of an argument. How completely unsurprising. There are so many differences between driving a car and making decisions about a pregnancy that I should not have to explain why your analogy is such garbage.

    Of course it is turning the woman into a slave.

    It is the state demanding a say in the personal and intimate decisions a woman makes concerning her body. Demanding control of it. A person whose body is at the command of others is a slave.
    You are therefore promoting slavery.

    My position can be described on its own terms without using garbage analogy or omitting material facts. Yours apparently cannot.

  • Oh, I think that there was definitely mirroring going on. Catholic high school kids don’t go on trips like this without supervision. Aside from teachers, there must have been parents. And there is no indication that any of the adults stepped in to stop the obnoxious behavior. Those kids could not have worn MAGA hats without permission of the supervising adults, and could not have been where they were, so …..

  • Banning people from RNS? Who in the hell do you think you are? What gives you the right and more importantly the ability to ban anyone from anything? Don’t like people who criticize the myth of god and the scam of religion? Too bad pal. You just better get used to it. Remember, if you step in the ring you may get punched in the nose. Deal with it. Grow up and stop acting like a petulant child. At least try to conduct yourself like a rational, reasoning, thinking, logical MATURE adult. But with credentials based on teaching the myth of god and the scam of religion that hardly seems possible.

  • Then Trump has really bent you over.

    Giving you the brunt of the tax burdens, erosion of employee rights, sold your privacy, enabled predatory lenders to go after you, stunted your wages, killed jobs, eroded availability of middle class benchmarks.

    Face it Sparky, unless you are independently wealthy, Trump does not represent your interests at all.

  • I see you are triggered by fictional stories by conservatives. All done to steal voting rights of citizens and enable election fraud like in NC. Illegal aliens are not voting en masse as you claim. You are either misinformed or misrepresenting facts.

  • when so much of Christianity is about empathy…….STOP… Someone hasn’t read Christianity. With all the jive about loving this person or that the bases of Christianity is follow God or burn. That is precisely how Christians behavior follows. Christians are saved from burning but if those others dont join us screw them…

  • What passes for American Christianity, AKA evangelicals, has nothing to do with the teachings of Christ. It is a cult of personality begun by John Calvin & Oliver Cromwell passed down to today and currently fronted by Page Patterson, Falwell, Graham and their ilk. Actual Christian Churches are described by my SBC brother “preacher” as “social clubs”. His actual words and the words of those like him. He and those like him are not Christians and I have told him so. It’s high time we take back the Body of Christ from the hate mongers and redirect it toward the goals of the Prince of Peace, not the war mongers and other haters.

  • Oh Christianity on paper is quite empathetic! And progressive Christians put that into action. I was talking about the cons.

  • Maybe you can get around to discussing the subject without lousy analogy and intentionally omitting the woman from the discussion. 🙂

  • I earlier shared my position, which relies on careful use of language to avoid mixing apples and oranges. It is you who have introduced misuse of language and lots of hyper-emotion into our exchanges, the kind of lazy behavior that does not promote intelligent discussion but is often used to promote a selfish agenda.

    The woman, like the male, should assume responsibility for unwanted pregnancy. It’s called “behaving like an adult”. I condemn abortion unless it’s necessary to save the mother’s life (in cases of pregnancy resulting from rape and incest, I can understand why women might not want to carry a pregnancy to term, but I cannot approve such abortions). In short, when a woman is faced with an unwanted pregnancy, I would hope she would have the financial and emotional resources to carry her pregnancy to term and arrange for adoption if desirable.

    Abortion is the deliberate killing of unborn biologically human offspring that had no “say” in their being conceived. To any woman who does not want to become pregnant and thinks it’s OK to have unprotected sex with her husband, fiance, boyfriend, or hookup, I say, “Grow up, take responsibility for any resulting pregnancy.” And to the guy who does not want to become a daddy, I say, “Grow some balls and act like a grownup. Sex can have unwanted consequences.”

  • Are you the pregnant woman in the photo?

    The guy in the second photo is not me. I took responsibility for my wife becoming pregnant. Our kid was carried to term.

  • Are you trying to be silly here or just obtuse?

    You can feel better about yourself about “taking responsibility”, but ultimately your wife had the final say on the matter. She bore 100% of the physical burden of the pregnancy. You had none.

  • Your position involves a good deal of omission, deceptive language choices and a rather nasty and reductive view of a woman’s role in a pregnancy.

    A woman is a person, not “a natural life support system”. A child, baby, infant, person is born. A fetus is not any of those. There is no analogue between gestation and the existence of any person born.

    The physical attachment of a fetus to its mother, a person and complete dependence on her uniquely for existence is materially different from any analogy with those born. That is just the immutable fact of mammalian reproduction.

    As with the photos, you did not see a baby in the first one. You only saw the woman. In the second photo you didn’t see the mother. The baby was cared for by a human being who was clearly not the mother. Obviously fetus and baby do not exist in an equivalent state of being.

    To put it bluntly, until it is no longer attached to her to exist, all you do is attack her, not “protect a fetus”. Your position is about diminishing a woman as a person and little else.

  • I was merely giving a BS response to a BS photo-comment of yours. Nothing more.

    True, regarding pregnancy and childbirth. My “responsibility” came afterwards.

  • I gave a “lousy analogy” because I was replying to a “lousy” comment of yours. I have not at all “omitt[ed] the woman from the discussion.” It “takes two,” after all :o)

    Are you a “womyn”?

  • Thanks stan! I was in a total panic to see what your input was until I got a chance to read your single-sentence comment above. Gee kekin’ golly you saved my life! You have such concise, productive comments and this discussion would be nothing without them!

  • Trump didn’t see the “Wall” as important enough to do it when he controlled Congress.
    Now it’s totally a matter of ego.

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